George Nutz
George Nutz
4/4/98
John,
Thanks for message, what king of boiler/burner upgrade in the Stanley
you were driving around? A neighbor of mine, Ed Gallant(now deceased)
made tons of Stanley parts including blocks and everything else and is
how I got interested again 15 years ago in this great hobby. The guy I
told you about,Jim Crank, is the owner of Doble Steam Motors and put
together the steam part of the Pebble Beach meet. You mentioned your
own Stanley had a 30HP boiler in a 20HP car, is it anything performance
wise like the above Stanley? The poor engine is so underbalanced it
must really flog itself at 1000rpm@70mph unless you have a 1.2/1 axle
ratio. To bad someone doesn't make a good big piston valve 4x5 engine.
Doble's 4x5 simple would turn up to 1500rpm still breathing OK. A
friend of mine has a racing Stanley with a big piston valved Bryant
engine and it is very fast and strong with a 1.2/ axle. Will also take
800psi on the engine without busting framerods.
Enough chatter,
Thanks, George Nutz
4/10/98
John,
Thanks for the knowlegeable reply and the great pics of the
LIKAMOBILE. Our next(2nd) SACA Northeast meeting is in two weekends and
if OK will print out your great pictures. Looks like a DC motor on top
of the boiler, is it a spinning cup burner? I am thru ignorance
looking at a carbureter type burner for my 8gph Doble-Lamont boiler but
hate to waste so much air energy on this device. Burner design I fear
is for one more complete lifetime and just designing a boiler is enough
exhaustive heat transfer analysis to fatigue me! Thanks again for your
info; by the way does the Gould burner burn around 8GPH? Certainly
would make a 26" boiler come to life.
Sincerely,
George Nutz
4/11/98
John,
Thanks again for information.
I didn't think Bourden of Vermont used such small id tubes. Are you
sure there not 1/2id? The maximum firing rate for a 23 inch Stanley
boiler (100sq.in flue area) appears to be 6GPH, the factory stated
3.8-4.0GPH was origial firing rate. At 6GPH one is close to lifting
water off the crown sheet I am told. Our SACA_NE president Walter
Winship, a 77 year old of incredible talents, made a 23" burner last
winter/slotted type/ and he measures things and can force 6GPH. The
original drilled 26" Stanley burners I believe were fired at around 6GPH
and had a steam output with pumps on of around 550#/hr or roughly 27HP
with the Stanley engine. The few guys around hear that use Baker burners
burn at higher rates than the drilled Stanleys, like 6GPH on the 23" and
8GPH on the 26". Your 3GPH sounds very low to me. By the way I would
like to find more info on the spinning cup burner as it is interesting.
I remember as a teenager in the late fourtys my father changing our coal
furnace to a TIMKEN rotary and it was neat to look in the mica window
and see nothing but a ring of blue flame coming off of it.
This Doble Lamont boiler uses a small 8"dia external drum and the
entire helical coil and top and bottom spirals are force circulated so
total protection is afforded. Takes about 8-10 amps @12volts to
circulate at five times maximum boiler output. As the tubing
temperature is NAILED to a few degress above saturation temperature thin
wall /light tubing can be used. We are using 1"OD 1/16th wall for this
firebox liner. The boiler reserve capacity is greater than a Doble
because there are 4 gallons in circulation at all times. Just have to
put up with a small pump and vertical drum. Its maximum firing rate is
8GPH although the boat will be fired at 6GPH. The water coils and one
boiler coil are as a Doble, so guess you could say it is not a monotube
but a two tube boiler. Total tubing is 250feet, 35ft.squared heating
surface and 19+ #/hr/sq.ft. evaporation of 700 pounds per hour.
Engineering is sooo easy but the poor builder !!! So it is a
combination monotube/water level boiler and the control systems and
feedwater demands are much more of the Stanley limited systems. A Doble
boiler would not work well in a Stanley because of such limited
feedwater supply at low speeds. This boiler has a time constant of well
over one minute where a wonderful doble maybe 15 seconds and if the
water didn't get there by then watch out!! What a great massive
feedwater supply on a Doble.!
Enough of my semi ignorant ramblings, learn something new every day.
Thanks, George
4/15/98
John,
I just turned on the computer to look at an EBAY auction and lo and
behold another great gift from you. It amazes me that in this modern
age friendships can be formed over e-mail messages, I want you to know
you are a great pleasure to meet! I sent your last to Walter Winship,
our 77 year old founder of SACA-NORTHEAST and one of the most incredibly
talented and creative steam members. I would hope you and he could
exchange messages and pctures;he has a scanner. To look at the absolute
pile of rust he bought from the curator of the Ford Museum that was
called an SV Stanley and what he created inch by inch is an incredible
accomplishment. I designed a modified "OFELDT" boiler for the car that
he is building. The car in your most beautiful photo is Brent Campbells
near original Stanley K. When he got it a few years ago I went down and we
put thermocouples all over it and found it running on hot water. Brent
is one of the modern rich folks that is totally unspoiled by success and
treats everyone with courtesy and as an equal. He is always a joy to
work with. Anyway thanks so much for your e-mail and I will try and get
Walter over his yankee shyness and send you some of his pictures. He is
also a great joy!
Thanks much,
George Nutz
4/30/98
John,
You have added considerably since you told me about the new website.
We had last saturday our second SACA/NORTHEAST meeting and like most
rabid enthusiasts had a great time. We had three lectures(I gave one on
the forgotten Lamont boiler) and free rides for all on a 1901 Lane
tiller steer and Coburn Benson's Vanderbilt Racer with 30" boiler. What
fun---we are off and running. Possibly can get Walter Winship to send
you pictures of his recreated from dust and rust Stanley SV pckup
truck. Thanks again for your generosity in steam.
George
10/1/98
John,
Thanks for the photos and glad your steamup was a success. We just
had our annual Lake Winnepesaukee steamboat meet, a record turnout of
nearly fifty boats. The wooden boat club got together about 25 old
Garwoods, Hackers, Chris Crafts etc and cruised up the lake to pay
tribute to all the steamers at the north end of this giant lake. A
great day and a week of beautiful fall weather.
Am sending you Rolly Evans new website, he is one of the most
talented and creative(and productive) steamers around these parts.
Think you and he would really hit it off! He is also a member of our
newly formed SACA-Northeast for us steam car nuts. Thanks for staying
in touch. Another member, Rod Teel, is building the 8gph Lamont boiler
I designed for his 25 foot modified planing sailboat hull, should cruise
at almost 20mph being engine limited.
Thanks, George
12/25/98
John,
Sorry to not have been in touch lately--it does not mean that the
steam interests are slowing! Hope you are well and making progress in
all things. A machinest friend is stopping buy (a member of
SACA/Northeast) with his Christmas toy a bathtub putt-putt steam boat. I
believe you sent me a website on it and if you still have it available
please forward it to me again. The 100th anniversary of the Mount
Washington auto hillclimb is rapidly approaching and are members are
working furiously to be ready for it. Jim Crank may bring out his bib
rebuilt Doble "E" that with turbobooster can produce a sustained 200HP
with a burn rate of 22GPH. A monster in all glorious respects.
May we meet someday and celibrate our common sickness, George Nutz
1/12/99
John,
Always a pleasure to hear from you. We are all getting ready for the
Mount Washington 100th celebration hillclimb this fall. Our
SACA/Northeast chapter is going full bore and lots of projects on the
fire. Would you be willing to send our president Walter Winship your
latest pictures? Think you two would really enjoy each other. He has
an article coming out in SACA about reclaiming his SV from a pile of
rust! His e-mail address is Wwinship@aol.com . Thanks much as your
entusiasm helps me get thru these New England winters.
Sincerely, George Nutz
1/27/99
John,
Thanks for jogging my old brain, I have sent Peter Scott several
e-mails on his project but deferred from becoming a team member. I was
told a few months ago how much money is available for his project by
team member Nergaard(member SACA/Northeast) and its not a lot. Two other
americans have joined the team--Jerry Peoples and Peter???.
John, I have worked out all the parameters of the 06-07 cars counting
every BTU and drop of water, have horsepower and torque curves on the
30HP engine etc. and would also feel better doing it in the USA. The
old slide valve engine was a terrible high speed breather and could have
put out 180HP@600psi@900rpm and after analyzing the wind and rolling
resistance could have blown 150-155mph in the measured mile and with
pumps off maintained 110-112mph without reducing boiler pressure. I
think your idea is great if someone blessed with money would back the
project. The 30" boiler had a 20 second overload capacity of
3500-4000#/hr @1300psi with a 11-1/2GPH firing rate. A modern
lightweight monotube with little reserve capacity would have to fire
40GPH like the car that Jim C. built with his Lear parts(became
Barber Coleman car)--I believe the pumping auxilaries on that car--water
and air--used over 45HP!! Remember when the great aerospace engineer
TRUAX built the rocket "motorcycle" for Knievel to jump that canyon? It
had no burner at all just a 2500-3000 psi hot pressure vessel and would
have made it over the canyon if the parachute had not been opened. That
is a very large preheated reserve capacity(the old fashioned Stanley
way) with an efficient Piston valve engine would get the job done
easily. My suggestion is to take a 4x5 Bryan piston valve engine that
can produce 150HP@800psi and bore and stroke it 10% to 4-1/2x5-1/2,
could run up to 1300 rpm and put out over 200HP. I am sure after this
engine was built(a VERY STRONG DESIGN) there would be a demand for
them. As an example if we took the 1907 racer and geared it for the 1/4
mile it would have done108.5mph in 13.2sec@796rpm-600psi engine.
If we put in the Bryan smaller 4x5 with 800psi it would have done
109mph in 12.4sec@1417rpm(a new 345HP Corvette does 107mph in
13.6sec)----the smaller better breathing big piston valve engine could
outperform the big Stanley.
Thanks again for your e-mails, you always get my steam fires lite!!
Sincerely, George K. Nutz
1/27/99
John,
Good to hear from you!!
All the stuff I sent you was to the best of my knowledge and
calculations true.
The 1907 car: The four venturis fired about 11-1/2GPH and could
produce with pumps on about 47HP. With pumps off and all the heat
energy going into evaporation very hot water @1300psi plus superheat it
could produce about 77HP without pressure drop--about 1550#/hr. As
stanley boilers have a huge energy storage it was capable of very large
overload for a short time and could momentarily put out 3500-4000#/hr
with falling pressure. With heat out/heat in analysis this would be
capable of 180hp for 20-30 seconds drawing the boiler down from 1300 to
700 but maintaining 600psi on engine
Jim C. built the race car out of everything he had bought from Lear
Steam Motors after Lear died, Lears son gave him first offer to take
everything out of the wharehouse. Jim also owns Doble Steam
Motors and has one of the two Howard Hughes Dobles with exhaust
turbobooster that can generate almost 200HP burning 22gph. Jim is a
great engineer and we go on and on with telcons for hours, He got feed
up with Fiberfab and the nonsense that was going on with the race car
and sold out to Barber-Coleman. The info I gave you on its performance
is from his given information.
The Truax built "rocket motorcycle" was a pure steam jet and goes to
show what a stored 1,000,000 BTU.s of hot water can due for short term
performance.
The problem with an original Stanley 30HP engine is that its breathing
"sucks" and its frame is of questionable strength, the valve horsepower
is also getting high with 600psi on the engine and it uses 20-22#/hphr
and cannot withstand high superheat.
The idea of staying closely to the original design with improved
aerodynamics(hard to beat the original that had 9 to 10HP wind
resistance and 2-3HP rolling resistance@60mph) would be most cost
effective. Just think if we put two 30HP boilers in it with Baker
burners and burned 8x2=16Gallons per hour what a good piston valve
engine could do with this!!! The old Cannon-Grout car had two boilers
and the Stanleys mentioned that their car was under weight enough to add
a second boiler and still meet the 2200# limitation. This would now be
a 70HP car pumps on and a 120HP car pumps off, on overload easily 250HP.
Enough George---George
1/29/99
John
Once again visited your Stanley site and it is one of the best and
touches me deeply inside that you would spend the work to make it
available to us all. Walter Winship has not been able to download your
pictures--I would hope that he would send you the before and after
pictures of his SV. The man is an indafigable worker and mentor and at
78 hope he has infinity to go. He, like I, are computer illiterates and
I would send you some stuff from floppys if I knew how to attach them,
could you be kind and patient with this dimwit and tell me and I will
send you stuff. Again, the articles on your website are well written
and informative--wish you and your accomplices well!
Sincerely, George Nutz
1/29/99
John,
Forgot to mention that Jim knows a lot about the SV. It was
described as one of the worst steam car designs--he knew the SV dealer
in California when a young boy and they broke so many engines that they
were replaced with Stanleys. It had a very small boiler, this must have
been a last ditch effort, must have found a pile of unused smaller
boilers. Walter had to modify his SV frame to open it up to 23" size.
I do like the pumps being driven off the ring gear thru shafts.
According to Jim the great steam engineer Eric Delling was called in to
be a consultant on the project. Jim lives in close by, and you could
call him and mention my name--he can live up to his name(as I can with
mine).
Crunching numbers on the upcoming Mt. Washington hillclimb/4,600 rise
in 7.6 miles with maximum grade of 22%, A 20HP Stanley condensing car
of 4500# would do well to do 38-40 minutes but the pump capacity would
be in arrears. Brent Campbell did it last year in a H-5 in 28 minutes.
Coburn Bensons Vanderbilt replica shoud be capable of 18-20 minutes.
Jim Cranks turboboosted 6000#+ Doble 8-10 minutes if there were no
curves. I believe the record for a steamer(before 2/3rds was paved) was
by Stanley way back in 22-4/5ths minutes. GOD they were smart chess
players in the steam game!!
Once again, George